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Non-weapon Weapons

Discussion in 'Personal Security Devices & Self-Defense' started by Simplicity05, May 25, 2013.

  1. jackknife

    jackknife Loaded Pockets

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    Yes it will.

    There is not any DA, or even assistant to the assistant DA that is dumb enough to prosecute you for using a cane in self defense. In fact, when I was 34 years of age, and I had a rough knobby blackthorn stick with me, a local sheriffs deputy made the mistake of hastling me over my stick. This was long before the ADA. In the end, he was suspended, and the department settled out of court for the 'undisclosed sum'. These days, cops ain't even gonna touch that issue. Espcially if there is a disparity of force issue.

    The local senior center gives lessons in how to use your cane for defense, and one of the people teaching it is my own son, a Montgomery Country police officer.
     
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  2. The British Are Coming

    The British Are Coming Loaded Pockets

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    Something as simply as a decent sized signet ring can do significant damage. If you're after thrusting weapons then the back end of a 4 D cell flashlight to the face would stop most people. Ram it straight into their face and they'll be dealing with a broken nose, cheekbones, upper jaw, teeth and a whole lot of blood all over the place. Then just shove em out of the cab and lock the door.

    Even a larger size old school mobile phone could work. Smack that into someone's teeth and you'll spoil their day!
     
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  3. Inner Prop

    Inner Prop Loaded Pockets

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    Okay, so the cane works in all instances (though I still find it hard to believe that you could get away with having one when you are clearly an athlete, but I'll trust what you are all saying, no arguments about that). The trouble is, I can't really carry a cane on my bike. I'm much more likely to have my bike chain when I'm on my bike, riding alone, at night, through eel infested waters (that last part was a joke).
     
  4. warchild
    • Memoria in Aeterna
    • The Omnia Paratus

    warchild Eternal Pockets

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    Well remember Cause and Intent. You are ON A BIKE so it's perfectly normal for you to have a bike chain. It wouldn't be normal for you to have a bike chain while getting out of a pick up truck. While riding a bike you have CAUSE to have the chain. And It will be harder for anyone to prove intent because you were on said bike when you had the chain.
    As an example for athletes and canes. I can bench press 312# and walked with a cane for over a year after a severe knee injury. Sitting alone in a restaurant you would never assume I would need a cane. 90% of this (in the case of these two items) is intent, as long as you are comfortable proving your intent was correct, you will have far less trouble proving defense.
     
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  5. jackknife

    jackknife Loaded Pockets

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    Looking like an athlete has nothing to do with it. In fact, an athlete can be recovering from an injury that may not be evident. When I was discharged from the army after injuries received on active duty, I was 30 years old, in great shape, and didn't look like I needed a cane. A cop would have needed x-rays to see the damage to my right foot and ankle. But they did such a good job at Walter Reed army hospital rehab that I had barely a noticable limp on a bad day. That's why they passed the AWD act. You can't tell, and it's violates your right to privacy to pry into your medical background. If I have a cane, they can't say boo. But try to walk around with some improvised thug weapon and try to explain it away. On your bicycle it's resonable to have a lock and chain. Once you park your bike, it's a no-go. And the cops are not that dumb in general. They all know about the lock on a bandana. And you sure ain't going to have the time to put it together if the too-doo hits the fan on the street. You need a tool that is ready from the get go, because some mugger isnot going to wait while you dig out your lock and thread your bandana through it. That's outright ridiculous. Ou'd be far better off with a sturdy pen in hand, or a family size can of Dinty Moore beef stew in a cloth reusable shopping bag of the type that is becoming popular. Who's to say you weren't going othave Dinty Moore for supper?

    Really, if you're going to carry a bludgeon weapon, make it reasonable for everyday life. Remember, even if the little son of a beech you clobber gets convicted of trying to mug you, they will have family members swear in the court at the lawsuit that he was a good boy, sang in the church choir as a boy, and was kind to his grandmother. They will ask for all your worth for bashing him so bad that he lost an eye, or he's going to be wearing depends for the rest of his life. And some liberal jury will say he was a product of his socio economicly deprived background. This :censored: does happen, and you have to think about it. Call it "plausible deniability" and make sure you have it. Carrying something around that looks like it was made up by a teen aged mall ninja as a makeshift weapon may not get you arrested, but it cvan get you bankrupted. A cane, a minimag flashlight, a Sharpie marker, all are everyday common objects that have a real world use not having anything to do with mayhem. All can be given reasonable explanation for being on you. A pen makes notes, a pocket flshlight lets you see in the dark, a cane helps you with that soccer injury you got in collage that bugs you sometimes.

    No matter what you carry, it should have a real world use that any idiot on a jury would find reasonable.
     
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  6. Slipjoint

    Slipjoint Loaded Pockets

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    You make some fine arguments, and while I agree with many of them, I think you may have missed a few important points:

    Sharpies, mini-flashlights, and tactical pens are pretty crappy weapons. They lack stopping power, and reach, and they leave you at a terrible disadvantage against an opponent with a real weapon. You may feel comfortable taking your tactical pen up against a guy armed with a knife or a pipe but I don't care for those odds.

    I like canes. They're decent self defensive items that can offer a lot of reach and they legally can go in many places. The drawback with canes is that they're lightweight weapons. They lack the capability to inflict serious damage quickly, and the longer your attacker is in the fight, the greater the chance he has to take you out.

    Which is why I brought up the improvised slungshot.

    If you're ever in a situation where having a weapon with real stopping power is more important than having a weapon that's politically correct, it's nice to have an option that will get the job done. An improvised slungshot can be made from readily available materials in places that are otherwise weapon-free. The weapon's simplicity of construction, ability to hide in plain sight, portability, concealability, and substantial power make it unique among potential self defense options.

    Yes, it might not be the best choice for every situation. As a street weapon, it's less than ideal because you've got to either carry it assembled (and risk breaking the law), or carry it unassembled and hope you get a chance to put it together before you need it.

    On the other hand, if you're in an weapon-free environment, and somebody starts shooting or stabbing, having something that can be quickly assembled and pressed into service is not a bad idea. Outside of the street, you're much less likely to be targeted directly by random violence, and you're more likely to have a few seconds to react if violence breaks out.

    For example, I think it's got a lot of potential as an office weapon, or maybe an aircraft weapon. If the choice is between using an illegal weapon or letting somebody hijack the plane to use it as a flying bomb, I'd personally rather take my chances with the law.

    For me it's about having options. An improvised slungshot would not be by first choice for most situations, but knowing how to do it, and keeping a few handy components around allows me the option of using it. It sure beats the hell out of having NO self defense options.
     
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  7. Echo2

    Echo2 Loaded Pockets

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    Do you have to go through a metal detector or get frisked?
     
  8. jackknife

    jackknife Loaded Pockets

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    I don't think I missed any point at all. I do think you have never tried to use slung shot in areal world sudden confrontation.

    There's no way a improvised slung shot weapon is going to be as effective as a good sturdy stick/cane. First, you have to make it, and you won't have time. Second, it's as limited range as a knife and has no blocking or parry ability. With my blackthorn I have 34 1/2 inches of hard heavy weapon. It breaks bones easily. To disable, you need to destroy the bone structure of the attacker. A stick will do that. It's no accident that the police agencies of the world choose a stick as a weapon for the police. A stick can be used one handed or two like the army pugil stick training or police riot stick techniques. Slung shot has none of those abilities.

    As for a sharpie not having what you call stopping power, hit someone with a good blow right in an eye or throat. The fight will end right there. As with any weapon, it's only as good as the operator. Kubotons make an excellent defense tool if you train with it even a little bit. The butt end of a mini mag against the temple of an attacker will ring his bell almost as good as a blackjack. When I went through the Colorado Law Enforcement academy, they taught us a course of how to use a pen and maglight as back up weapons. The butt of a minimag stike to the back of a hand will break the small bones it contacts. With the bones broken, that hand is out of action. I hardly call that a crappy weapon. A low life fighting with one hand is going to loose.

    Use what you like. But the Walter Mitty ninja tools are what I call a crappy weapon. I much prefer what I know works well to disable an attacker. And will go right through security ready to use. No assembly required.
     
    Last edited by jackknife, Jun 19, 2013
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  9. jackknife

    jackknife Loaded Pockets

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    Quite often. I live on the northern edge of the Maryland suburbs of Washington D.C. and go 'downtown very often. Museums, art galleries, whatever. Most federal buildngs have tight security. IN addition to that, the better half and I are both retired, and spending our kids inheritance. Meaning we are traveling a lot, and taking the trips we always wanted to take. So far we've been to England, and Italy. Most of the musseums have security to go through.
     
  10. Echo2

    Echo2 Loaded Pockets

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    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    Composites.....are cool.
     
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  11. AcesQ

    AcesQ Loaded Pockets

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    That's a neat idea pal.

    In my country we can't carry any form of weapon. I personally carry a CRKT Tao pen which can be used as a striking device.
     
  12. keith1234
    • The Omnia Paratus

    keith1234 Loaded Pockets

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    I used to have a couple of links of a small sized chain in between instead of the split ring. When I had to go to court for jury duty I just unscrewed the screwlimk and carried my keys on the one split ring so there were no questions asked.
     
  13. Aleister

    Aleister Loaded Pockets

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    First of all, I believe cane is a great option even for people who don't need it (they can only carry it when they know they are going somewhere dangerous). But for people who don't need one and don't want to carry something that will reduce the number of available hands to one while still carry an able non-weapon weapon, here are some - not really new - ideas:
    1. Sturdy pen (but if your opponent(s) are more trained in martial arts, you probably will never make the blow)
    2. Chinese relaxation balls (with little practice you will learn to accurately throw one to a head at 6 meters (20 feet)... They are heavy and metal in the inside but buy more than one pair because you are going to destroy the outside of your training pair, believe me, I know). And if someone asks you about them, you can always respond "I am NERVOUS! They help me RELAX! You have a PROBLEM with THAT?" :D
    3. Heavy keychain with a paracord "hanger" long enough to place your pinky in the "hanger" hole, fit your palm and protrude a couple of inches (on the "business side" of the paracord you could mount a hefty flashlight, a couple of stainless steel pocket tools (like Swiss+Tech ones) and maybe a custom made "beautiful" stainless steel heavy, pointy pendant (my favorite shape for this is a cube))
    4. A long pointy key on your keychain (which you can hold between your thumb and index fingers)
    5. A tactical flashlight (at night you can see better, you can make yourself and a possibly hidden attacker visible, you can temporarily blind an attacker. At day you can use it as a kubaton or - if you tie some paracord on one end and hold lightly the flashlight by 1/3 of it's length - as a ...well, I don't know how to call it)
    6. Your stainless steel watch clipped at your hand as an ironfist
    7. Boots with steel front (or some other really hard material)
    8. Motorcycle gloves with carbon kevlar fist protection (if you have a motorcycle)
    9. Motorcycle small heavy lock (if you have a motorcycle and while you are near it)
    10. Bicycle chain and lock (if you have a bicycle and while you are near it)
    11. Steering wheel lock (in your car)
    12. A cup of really hot coffee (you can't count on that if you don't just got your coffee but keep it in mind for the times you just got your coffee)
    13. Your belt (I really suck with a belt but there are people that can successfully use it as a weapon)
    14. A can in a bag (as someone already said).
    15. A stainless steel water bottle (full with water and with a paracord hand hanger)
    16. A small plastic "squeezy" easily opened bottle with something legal that hurts the eyes (e.g. soap). And the wits to say "you have about three minutes to wash that off before you become blind"... :D If instead of soap you use alcohol, ammonia, vinegar e.t.c. you are probably telling the truth! :D
    Helpful skills:
    1. Learn to throw anything accurately
    2. Martial arts (of course)
    3. Training with a sword or stick (so you know what to do with your cane / a random wood e.t.c.)
     
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  14. Slipjoint

    Slipjoint Loaded Pockets

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    [​IMG]
    Pictured: A simple lock & chain slungshot

    I haven't had to use one. But then again, I've never had to use any other weapon either. I try to avoid dangerous situations to the best of my ability, and so far, this strategy has worked for me. However, if the time comes that I do need a weapon, I'd like to have as many options as possible.


    I'm well aware that a mini-mag or sharpie can be pressed into service as a weapon of last resort. And I'm not saying that it's bad to have one in your arsenal. But it would be among the last things I'd choose to defend myself.

    Kubotons were developed to serve as law enforcement tools, as a less lethal option that offered a lower level of potential damage than other weapons of the era. They were never intended to be the sole weapon of the police officer, but merely a lower step in the force continuum.

    Kubotons (and ersatz kubotons like the mini maglite or pen) are okay weapons for pain compliance, especially against someone who's not resisting, or is a less-than-able combatant (old, wimpy, drunk, etc). Against a serious threat, though, the limitations of the weapon become clear.

    For those occasions where the kubotan was not enough, the officer still had other weapons handy if the fight escalated to deadly force. But no officer in his right mind would choose a kuboton for a fight with an opponent armed with a deadly weapon.

    You get virtually no range with a kubotan, and it's a rather clumsy weapon to use. And when it does hit, there are only a few places on the body where a hit will be effective. You mentioned strikes to the temple and eyes. Yeah, a kubotan probably works well IF you can hit those targets, but they're small and hard to hit. As for strikes to the hand, you're going to have to hope your attacker leaves his weapon hand out for you to take a swing at it. Most attackers won't be that stupid; even untrained people will tend to lead with the empty hand.

    Meanwhile, the badguy is also trying to make mincemeat out of you with whatever he's got. God help you if your opponent has a weapon with greater range and/or power (knife, pipe, length of rebar, etc). Your weapon might inflict pain, but it will only incapacitate if you get really close, and can get in a very lucky shot on a few specific targets. His weapons will probably be capable of doing lethal damage from greater range, and will be more effective against a greater portion of your anatomy.


    Police use sticks and riot batons because they're less likely to kill or inflict permanent damage. In the old days, police used shorter, heavier clubs and blackjacks. These were much more dangerous than the long skinny sticks used today, and led to so many maimings and deaths that the public eventually got fed up with it and demanded that police exercise more restraint. Hence the skinny sticks.

    Unfortunately, skinny sticks (including walking sticks and canes) can be underpowered for self defensive purposes. In general, you'll be able to inflict painful hits, but you'll have a hard time doing real damage. I'm not saying it can't be done, but the weapon does not lend itself to hard hits. You might break bone, but then again, you might just bruise the guy a bit. Hell, a lot of cops have even broken sticks on some guys head without stopping the guy or breaking the bone.

    Compare this to the blackjack; a weapon that was known for breaking bones, caving in skulls, and putting badguys down (often permanently). Blackjacks didn't have as much reach, but you got tremendous power with each hit. In terms of stopping power, a slungshot is about as effective as a blackjack (though not quite as easy to use). These weapons are also faster than a stick, and easier to use one-handed.

    As I mentioned before, I like canes. I just don't like them for every situation. Sure, the slungshot is not a great parrying weapon, but not every fight is going to be a duel. And while the range of the walking stick is good, it's lack of power and slower striking speed need to be taken into consideration. Training can help mitigate the weaknesses somewhat, but it can't overcome them entirely (in contrast, a slungshot is much easier to use effectively).

    The range of the walking stick can also work against it. It works okay at longer ranges, but if you get rushed, you're going to have trouble fighting off somebody with shorter weapon. Cane's are also lousy in tight places (like hallways). It's also easy to end up in a tug-of-war with a long stick. This is especially dangerous if you've got multiple attackers.

    As to which weapon will be more effective, this depends entirely on the situation. A stick is often good enough to drive off an attacker who is not looking for trouble. On the other hand, a stick may not have enough power to take a determined attacker out of the fight before he can harm you.

    The idea is to keep the weight and handle separate until you need it. If you know you're going to be walking through a bad neighborhood, you can put it together before you leave the house. If you've got the simple version (a hefty lock on a rope handle), this will only take a second or two.


    I'd hardly call the slungshot a "Walter Mitty ninja weapon". It's a street weapon with hundreds of years worth of proven effectiveness. I've done a lot of research over the years into improvised weaponry, and the slungshot trumps anything else I've come across.

    It's extremely simple, and can be improvised from a wide variety of materials. Even if you're completely unprepared and not expecting to need a weapon, you can often improvise one out of found materials. It takes little skill to use, but packs a serious wallop and it can be carried unobtrusively in a pocket until needed. Separate the components and it won't even register as weapon.

    It wouldn't be my first choice for every situation, but I think it's a good idea to know how to put one together if you find yourself needing something to defend yourself in a pinch.


    [​IMG]

    Pictured: This slungshot was made from a large bolt and paracord. It can't easily be taken apart, but I thought it was an interesting choice of materials that illustrate the variety of possible options you can use to improvise one. This is not my picture, BTW, just something I found on the net years ago.
     
    Last edited by Slipjoint, Jun 19, 2013
  15. Inner Prop

    Inner Prop Loaded Pockets

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    It seems to me that you use whatever is at hand if you absolutely have to, a pen, a flashlight, a bike lock etc.

    I would probably have any one or more of these.

    My question was really about training. All of these would be far more useful if you train on them. My question really was if training shows intent of use as a weapon.

    I'm not likely to carry a cane or an umbrella (though I like both, as their original purpose and a a handy weapon), but I don't have one. My question would be applicable for these too. If you train with your cane wouldn't the evidence of the training show that you intended to use it as a weapon?

    For that matter, would the profeciency of using it as a weapon be damning?

    BTW, I would have a minimag style flashlight when I'm with my bike and I take that off the bike when I lock it up. Also, for range and stopping power I could just throw the bike at someone (jk, I'd probably be riding away as fast as I can pedal).
     
    Last edited by Inner Prop, Jun 21, 2013
  16. Varmitslayer

    Varmitslayer Loaded Pockets

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    In the truck my go to would be a philips screwdriver, Ice picks were used as weapons back in the 30's by gangs and all a screwdriver is is a thick ice pick. Screwdrivers are also very common items in most vehicles and it would be easier to use if someone is trying to drag you out of your vehicle than a cane or other bludgeoning device. once your out of the vehicle the cane would do you more good than the screwdriver would.
     
  17. squid86

    squid86 Loaded Pockets

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    I agree with the screwdriver statement above. I would go with an object I could stab with when inside a car. Canes or similar are too big to try to swing while in car, out of car its good. The swinging objects on chains or rope are also unusable while inside the car. A good sturdy screwdriver would be a good option in my opinion.

    Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk 4 Beta
     
  18. bluejacket2006

    bluejacket2006 Empty Pockets

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  19. eqlzr

    eqlzr Loaded Pockets

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    I would just like to say a supportive word on behalf of lanyards. They are cheap and easy to acquire, of justifiable use, and attached to any item of utility (such as a pocket knife, "maglite", multitool, etc) can create a very substantial amount of centripetal force that might come in very handy in a dire situation.
     
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  20. batteur
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    batteur Loaded Pockets

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    When I visited the Bundestag (German parliament) last year they took the two golf balls I had in my pockets. I got them back later. I guess they look more like flying objects than these Chinese balls.